Once More Into The Breach, My Friends

Note to Latecomers: A long drawn out debate is going on here about This Crazy Little Thing Called God. If you, like me, have no life, and face a rainy, lazy afternoon, you may be entertained if you go through the following series of posts and the associated comments (the comments are important), in that order.

Forgive me this trespass (the post that started it all)
Thinking about God at this ungodly hour
An interesting email 

Balajee's has a good comment that calls for a decent response. So here goes. Balajee's comments are in blue italics.

Interesting..

Let's see here. In your opinion, if I may take the liberty here to try to extract from your various posts -

1. God does not exist. Creation is a freak occurance.

I don't recall saying that creation is a freak occurrence. Indeed, it may be a very labored and planned occurrence. I have only questioned (A) its quality and (B) the position that God, if he is indeed responsible for creation, is somehow above being held accountable for the imperfections in it.


2. If God does exist, there is really nothing special about it, as he is in typical nature, imperfect at best, and being imperfect, does not qualify to be called God in the euphoric sense man has made him/her/it to be.

Correct.

Only one minor point: Being imperfect does not imply not being special. Being Perfect, of course, immediately makes you very special. But one can be very special, yet imperfect. You can freely think of God as being special. I have only stated that if he exists, he is not Perfect, judging by the quality of some of his work.

Remember Balajee, Perfection is a dangerous virtue to claim. It requires just one misstep to prove imperfection.

BTW, are you agreeing with me on the imperfect nature of God?


3. Practicing thiests typically tend to glorify God as all-loving, all powerful, blah- blah.. while emperical evidence suggests otherwise, and hence God cannot really be all that.Correct.

4. Man has rationalized God to an extent that it has become a utopian exercise that really has begun to do more harm than good..

Begun? Surely you jest. The amount of harm that has been inflicted in the name of God on one man by another since humankind learned to wipe its ass and say Grace has been recorded in elaborate detail in any history book worth the paper it is printed on. A quick trip to a reasonably well-stocked library should convince anyone of this.

Begun?


I must say, atheists have it really easy. The burden of proof rests squarely on the thiests. It's obviously more important to prove that God exists, rather than proving the God does not exist.

Atheists have it easy, huh? You think so?

Balajee, challenging majority opinions does not make you popular. Since at last count, theists grossly outnumber atheists, it is quite obvious that in this particular rumble, the atheists' backs are pretty close to the wall. Cut us some slack, will you?

I would actually rebut that most of the time atheists bow to reality and accommodate theists, rather than the other way round.

Take this example. Both my mother and my wife are good old-fashioned honest-to-goodness religious folks. Often after a lot of goading and to keep my sanity, I find myself going to temples and standing in front of a piece of a gaudy piece of stone and folding my hands while simultaneously closing my eyes. And feeling rather foolish about the whole business. But I do it to spare feelings. Now, let's say I make my mother this proposition: "Mother," I say, "since I have just spent a good half hour of my time uncritically worshipping God in deference to you, can you now spend half an hour with me uncritically bashing that stupid friggin' bastard?"

You think that she, or any theist for that matter, will oblige? Fat chance.

I am not sure I entirely agree with some of your observations. For example, your thoughts on 'disease'. I am sure that you would agree that Nature thrives on a balance. Disturb that balance and things can get pretty messed up. Diseases are a consequence of man messing up that balance. To a large extent diseases including cancer are a consequence of repeated f*** ups by man. And that is true of any disease or even several congenital diseases. Nothing bad has happenend typically untill man has interfered with it.

Many Christians believe that we live in a fallen world. That we have all collectively sinned and hence we are suffering an imperfect world full of imperfections and disease and whatnot. That fairytale, when you cut through all the pious bullshit, is a transference and evasion mechanism. Known in popular parlance as a cop-out.

Okay, let's take the following position. Let's say that humans have too, disturbed the balance and had it coming. Since I am no medical expert, can you explain to me how exactly humans cause Down's Syndrome. Or Proteus Syndrome? Or those cases of cancer that do not obtain from lifestyle choices?


It's really unfortunate that man has created religion as a vehicle of his belief system, and rather than live by those tenets that he believes will take him to God, is more insistent on ensuring that others accept his belief system. That to me is the core issue. Maybe God was never intended to be a super being, all-loving and all that, maybe he has come to be seen that way as each system of beliefs clashed with each other in a 'my God is better than yours' contest and each system fabricated more and more outlandish tales of super-powers to up the ante on what their God can do! Who knows!

I think that is a good, well-reasoned analysis. Right on the ball. You correctly point out that theism misinterpreted and gone wild is a danger to all. You see, when you come right down to it, it is extremely difficult to separate religion from God. You or I may do it with flippant ease, but most cannot get to that elevated plane of thinking even if their lives depended on it.


But let's just be cognizant of the fact that there are several things that man cannot explain scientifically - things like what the heck I am doing up at 5:30 am on a Saturday morning sitting on my computer.. but seriously, things like why the human body works the way it does, occurances of an extra-sensory nature (OBEs, NDEs), heck most of medicine as we know it today is more an exercise of cause and effect, rather than truly understanding why things happen the way it does. Man can try to answer the 'Hows' but is nowhere near asnwering the 'Whys'. He may in due time find out all of that, and perhaps he may find out that there is a sper being or perhaps we will finally have a Theory of Everything and a Law of Everything..

OBE is Out of the Body Experience, am I correct? What is NDE?

Yes, man does not know many things given the limits of science. But are you suggesting that what we don't know as Science may very well be Divine?

You are most certainly not saying the following, but I have heard some people argue this way: Science cannot explain so-and-so; thus it is Divine. To those, I say: Why not Satanic? Or the work of purple-skinned aliens from Betelgeuse? What's wrong with those explanations? No really, are those not equally valid alternate explanations?

5:30 am? 5:30 am?? 5 bloody thirty am??? How do you manage it? You are awake, ready and swinging roughly about the time I go to sleep. Let me in on the secret, man. Reform me.


In the meanwhile however, if we can all just go about our lives doing the best we can, help each other take care of ourselves, treat everyone with respect, both for their individuality as well as for their social networks, help those less fortunate than ourselves, and try to be happy, we should be ok.. If that takes us go God, so be it, if it does not, then we still did the best we could..

Yes, I agree. And even though that is an extremely noble thought in itself, I am not sure how it is relevant to the discussion at hand. I fully subscribe to what you are saying--being an atheist does not imply not being a humanist.

But what is being discussed here is the nature of God, not how best to clean up his mess. Or what our moral duties are. If you want to, we can start another thread for that one.


One last observation - Hard core Atheists and Theists have one thing is common. Neither is willing to really allow for the possibility that they could be wrong.

Yes, of course. Hence the moniker "hard core". But really Balajee, how many hardcore atheists have you heard about? Have they appeared closed to debate? Have they been wild-eyed and shown a fondness for fire-and-brimstone and automatic weapons?

For my part, I have seen many hardcore theists, some of whom have told me, in so many words, that I am bound for this certain badass place called Hell unless I came around and reformed and subscribed to their stupid insipid fairytales. And then stopped talking to me when I have tried to ask why.

Even more disturbing...I have also heard of many hardcore theists, some of whom make the headlines of major newspapers with monotony. For all the wrong reasons. Or make their way into history books. Osama. St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. Crusades.

I am not confusing religion with God. With the exception of Buddhism and some schools of Hinduism, most major religions revolve around the concept of God. And as pointed out, you may find some way to separate the two, but I think it is safe to say that most haven't. As things stand today, theism and religion are practically indistinguishable. Balajee, we can lament about how things should be, but we do have to deal with things as they are. Today, theism has a more than even chance of going off the handle and causing much out-and-out grief than atheism, with its sad membership rolls and battered siege mentality can ever hope to equal.

But that may change. Once we find more people. About a billion or two more should do it. Would you like to sign up for membership? It's free. And you get a lounge chair.